Posts by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

27

Incredible document on the Watchtower and cognitive dissonance

by sabastious in

i recieved an awesome document in my youtube messages yesterday.

the person giving it told me it was the best description of the experience he had went through which involved entering and exiting the watchtower over the course of only a few years.. .

written by jamie boyden [<--not sabastious] sunday, 08 february 2009 14:19. .

February 13, 2017 BOE Re: Memorial and Special Talk

by wifibandit in

february 13, 2017 to all bodies of elders re: memorial and special talk.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

"As you meet with inactive ones, please convey the love and concern of the Governing Body"

Wow! another great loving provision! Clearly Jehovah's direction.

What is their arrangement for people that are not disfellowshipped but that are unofficially shunned?

26

Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

controversy has arisen regarding jesus versus paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of jesus and paul.1 jesus preached the kingdom of heaven.

paul did not.

paul preached justification by faith alone.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Controversy has arisen regarding Jesus versus Paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of Jesus and Paul.1 Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven. Paul did not. Paul preached justification by faith alone. Jesus did not. What are we to make of this? Can the two be reconciled? The answer depends on what is meant by reconciliation.

"Let us be clear from the outset. The messages of Jesus and Paul were fundamentally different. Reconciliation of their messages cannot be done by harmonization. This is a fact we must accept. No one is helped by attempts to lessen the differences by declaring that the gospel is a salvation story for both Jesus and Paul. The differences remain. No benefit comes from theological gibberish that the gospel is the kingdom and the kingdom is the gospel. No light comes from attempts to show that Paul “betrayed” Jesus or “perverted” His message.

No benefit comes from those who maintain Jesus and Paul contradicted or disagreed with one another. Such offerings of strange fire move us further from the text and sound theology. Instead, we must seek a biblical understanding of the Scriptures for reconciliation."

I read this, and have not yet done much research about this topic, but I think this is interesting.

the question to all is:

Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?

I never really thought about that

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDKk15KcqNk

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Diogenesister

you will indeed not hear muslims talking about wanting sharia to be implemented

you might look up Taqiya. This is an islamic term that allows muslims to lie when it benefits Islam. They can say they do not want to have sharia but this does not mean that this is what they really think. Their thinking is controlled by Islam.

"Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it. We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream...Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era."

It will go on like this for maybe many more years, and when muslims are the majority, they DO impose sharia law. No problems in Britain? I don't know, don't live there, but there are already examples of cities like Malmo in Sweden and neighbourhoods in Brussel (molenbeek) or in The Hague (schilderswijk) where police can't come and where daily life is being influenced by sharia law

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Rainbow, yes I agree with you, many aspects within Islam contradict one another. I would like to comment on the things you said.

All of this presumes that the hadith are accurate records of Muhammad's words and deeds. But how could they be?

Here is where faith comes into play. This is the core of their whole religion. It cannot be removed. Compare this, I replaced some words.

Christianity:

All of this presumes that the Gospel accounts are accurate records of Jesus' words and deeds. But how could they be?

Is this not very much the same reasoning? This is called faith. A Christian will never say, ''well, we don't know if these accounts are really trustworthy, so let's forget the things Jesus said.'' And if they would do that, then they can no longer be Christians. Likewise, no Muslim will be willing to deny the words of their prophet. The ones that do, are not changing the religion, but making a complete new one. They are no longer Muslim.

But more importantly, as you pointed out, much of the hadith directly contradicts the Qur'an. The Qur'an is supposed to be the word of God, while the hadith are only the words of a man named Muhammad (maybe). If one conflicts with the other, which should a true Muslim obey?

Again, I would like to make a comparison, I change some words

For JW's:

Much of the Watchtower directly contradicts the Bible. The Bible is supposed to be the word of God, while the Watchtower are only the words of an organisation. If one conflicts with the other, which should a true JW obey?

Answer: JW's should obey the watchtower

For Mormons:

Much of the Book of Mormon directly contradicts the Bible. The Bible is supposed to be the word of God, while the Book of Mormon are only the words of a man named Joseph Smith If one conflicts with the other, which should a true Mormon obey?

Answer: Mormons should obey the Book of Mormon.

Examples for each one of them:

Watchtower says: We should shun apostates, whereas the Bible does not teach this. Which side do they choose? Watchtower!

Book of Mormon says: drinking alcohol is forbidden, whereas the Bible does not teach this. Which side to they choose? The Book of Mormon!

And now what this discussion is about, the Muslims:

Hadith says: kill apostates! The Quran does not (explicitly) teach this. Which side do they choose?

The Hadith!

I can completely agree with you that Muslims should not follow Hadith, but also do I say that I think JW's should not follow Watchtower and Mormons should not follow the Book of Mormon.

But what happens if a JW's rejects the watchtower? Is he just changing the religion or making a complete new one? The same with mormons. If they reject the Book of Mormon, it creates a whole new religion.

Likewise, if these Quranists reject the Hadith, they are not just changing Islam, but they are creating a new religion that is in no way how Islam really is.

Can a JW still be called a JW if he no longer follows the Watchtower? No.

Can a Mormon still be called a Mormon if he no longer follows the Book of Mormon? No.

Which brings us to the most important question.

Can a Muslim still be called a Muslim if he no longer follows the Hadith?

I leave this question open. I am interested in what you would answer there.

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Rainbow, about the Quranists, this is really controversial. You say, they return to the Quran alone. This makes them non-muslims, because Muslims need to follow the prophet Mohammed.

The aya also mentioned in my last post

Surah 4:80
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

If they turn away from the things their messenger said, then they will be rejected by all other Muslims. From my own non-Muslim point of view, I cannot really view them as Muslims if they don't listen to Mohammed.

Rainbow you also say

An Islam based on the Koran would at least respect the right of other religions to exist and it would end the death penalty for every offense save murder

The thing I would like to say about this, is: an Islam based on the Quran alone is no longer Islam. You cannot simply say, we now reject the scriptures about our prophet. The scriptures are there, and form an essential part of Islam.

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

In addition to my first post. Here Some quran verses that say you can choose your own religion, and after that some from Haddith that forbids that practice. Haddith is made superior here to Quran

Surah 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Surah 18:29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve

Surah 109:6
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion

These were the Quran verses, now HADITH

The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" This verse from the Hadith is worse than it appears because it isn't speaking solely of apostates, but those who say they believe but don't put their religion into practice.

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

So if you have debates with Muslims about their freedom to change their religion, they will probably show you the Quran verses, but what it is really all about is the Haddith here. It clearly is forbidden for them, no matter how they say or quote things

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

What is also interesting is Naskh (abrogation). This is when there are contradictions found in the Quran, Sunnah, Haddith that the newest aya (verse) replaces the older aya(s).

For instance, there are ayas in the Quran that shows alcohol was not forbidden for Muslims, but later an aya was written in which it was said that it was forbidden, so the newest aya makes the older no longer relevant.

for the example below, note that Quran is not chronological, but organized in terms of length. So the aya from chapter 3 can replace the aya from chapter 5 and 2.

Surah 2:62 (some claim this is abrogated by Surah 3:85 below)

Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, - Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Surah 5:69 (some claim this is also abrogated by Surah 3:85 below)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course : but many of them follow a course that is evil.

Surah 3:85

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
So we see a complete contradiction here. Will only Muslims be rewared for there faith or also Christians and Jews? Because of Naskh, little to no attention is paid to verses that speak positively about faiths other than Islam, or to the many many other contradictions in the Quran. Smart solution!

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

You are right in saying that they are fundamentally different.

Many people (mainly left people) say that we should not make a difference between the religions, we all have freedom of religion!

there is a very, very big problem in that reasoning.

a fundamental and extremely important part of freedom of religion is the freedom to change your religion. When not all religions act the same on this principle, then we should not say they are equal and deserve the same status.

for instance, all mainstream christian denominations accept and respect when somebody leaves or change faith

JW's I see them as somewhat in the middle, they accept it but do not respect it in my eyes (because of shunning etc).

islam is not accepting it and not respecting it if somebody leaves the faith

so NO the religions are not equal

when i debate this with pro-muslims at university, they say that what I say is discrimination to the muslims.

in fact, it is not. The left people are the ones accepting islam and the fact that islam takes some rights from muslims away

i think the individual rights are superior than the rights we give to religions

if we choose to give muslims the opportunity to have the same freedom as we have, which they 100% deserve, then we MUST take a stance against islam

if a religion does not accept certain rights for individuals, the religion must change. But Islam will not change, so we will have to treat that religion differently than religions that DO respect ALL the FREEDOM rights that EVERY individual has, every muslim, every christian, everybody.

i am against islam, but in no single way against muslims, they are victims of this oppressing religion and should be helped whenever possible